Bible Talks - Sunday Night Church
Series: Matters of the HeartOld TestamentDeuteronomyNew TestamentMatthew · Talk No. 5
Divorce and remarriage
Sunday, 09 April 2006
Deuteronomy 24:1-4, Matthew 19:3-12
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DavidG on Tuesday 11 April, 2006 at 10:17 AM
This talk was not what I expected, at all. I had a classic "What the..." , double-take moment sitting in my pew.
I'd like to have an opportunity, Neil, to pick your brain face-to-face about it.
Neil Atwood on Tuesday 11 April, 2006 at 10:53 AM
Picking my brain face to face sounds a tad painful Dave!
But happy to talk about it.
I'm the first to admit that much of my attitude to divorce was challenged as I read and researched, but I'm now convinced that many churches and Christians get the biblical perspective on the matter distorted. That's not a criticism, just an observation. 
Tim Haynes on Tuesday 11 April, 2006 at 11:59 AM
Just listened to the podcast as I wasn't there on Sunday. Having never really experienced divorce close up I was wondering how it could relate to me. I have had relatives divorce but mainly those ones that I don't see very often if at all. It seems that me and Danny are the only ones on the Haynes side not to have issues with divorce. I guess I'm starting to get what Paul is saying about staying single.
I like how you emphasise the need to regard marriage as something serious instead of something we do for convenience.
Did you check the link for the Aussie Divorce pack that I emailed a few weeks ago (http://www.aussiedivorce.com.au). I heard it on the radio, surely they are treating divorce as something to do when the going gets slightly difficult. Instead of working at your marriage as we all should do, go and get a simple divorce. Is there such a thing as a "simple" divorce? I guess not.
David Corless on Tuesday 11 April, 2006 at 12:36 PM
I had a similar experience to Dave, although as I thought through my objections more and more, I think I realised that I agree with you! I'm wondering Neil, did you write this sermon aiming it at an audience who takes the standard conservative position (divorce should never happen). It seemed to me that you were deliberately trying to "unbalance" the talk (i.e. didn't make a big deal about God hating divorce, but really pushed the fact that he "permitted" it) which had me (and others) wanting to disagree with you, despite the fact that when i thought about it afterwards I hold a similar position to you. It was quite strange and left me frustrated. But it was also really helpful because I had to really think about what you said. I think I'm saying thank you for really pushing my understanding on this topic.
Neil Atwood on Tuesday 11 April, 2006 at 02:08 PM
@Tim - Thanks for your comments. I did check out the site you sent, and did ease that thought about divorce being the 'easy way out'. But you are right - there is no such thing as a 'simple' divorce.
I had so much more material I could have used. On reflection, if Easter hadn't been coming up, I think I would have split the divorce talk into at least two parts. That would have allowed more time in the O.T. to lay the ground for what the N.T. says - and it seems to me that the connection there is key to us understanding better what the N.T. says about the subject.
@David - Thanks for your honesty and openess. I wasn't deliberately pitching the talk to any group in particular. I was conscious that many people at SNC have been and are impacted by divorce in one way or another.
My initial approach was badly flawed. While I have been involved pastorally in a number of divorce situations, I had not ever sat down and thoroughly worked out a biblical understanding. I was guilty of reading passages like the Matt 5 verses at face value and out of context - and yet wrestling what I _thought_ Jesus was saying and the reality of broken and shattered lives in front of me! I knew I couldn't let circumstances dictate my theology, but I kept putting it in the too hard basket.
This talk really bought me up short and made look long and hard at the question, and do a lot of study and reading in a very short amount of time.
I was encouraged to read up on a bloke called "David Instone-Brewer":http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Brewer/Index.htm and while I don't have his book (yet) I spoke to couple of other guys in ministry who have read it. The most interesting aspect for me is his exegetical contribution to our understanding of this issue.
He interprets the 'key' Gospel passages (eg. Matt 5 & 19) against the background of the Hillelite/Shamaiite rabinnic debates of Jesus' day. He regards Jesus' words as buying directly into this debate and therefore should not be taken as a universal statement on divorce and remarriage. The key book is: Divorce and Remarriage in the Church.
I don't think my understanding on all this is yet fully developed, but it's been a very good exercise for me to do, and I hope it was "good" for SNC as well (at one point last week, I toyed with postponing the talk to allow further preparation!).
Sorry for the long winded reply!
DavidG on Tuesday 11 April, 2006 at 04:25 PM
No, Neil, the reply was good.
Notwithstanding my own personal issues regarding divorce, I am intrigued to hear of a well-founded view other than the "NT face-value" view on divorce due to my job as a divorce lawyer.
This could potentially change the way that I perceive my working role...
Neil Atwood on Tuesday 11 April, 2006 at 06:36 PM
What a great thing Dave - to be open to allowing the Word of God to change aspects of ours lives that we (possibly) thought beyond it's impact (never true, of course, but you know what I mean!).
I think you would find David Instone-Brewer a most interesting read.
Looking forward to talking further...
tammy on Tuesday 18 April, 2006 at 12:38 PM
Neil, are you going to put up the text of this talk?
The whole series looks like it has been very worthwhile and I am really sorry to have missed it. I have been getting regular synopses of the talks through those who do attend the evening service, and wish sometimes I could be there.
This whole sequence of relationship stuff is an area I think gets put in the "too hard" basket by a lot of churches and it is good to see that it is getting tackled here, at all stages. It really upsets me when good Christian people are excluded from ministry because of a blanket ban on divorcees in ministry of any type, or when young people get mixed messages about what is acceptable in a relationship, even from within the church. And a good marriage takes a lot of work, so it is always helpful to get some guidance and encouragement there too.
Simon Job on Tuesday 18 April, 2006 at 01:02 PM
tammy, Neil is going on holidays so not sure when he will respond. On his personal site, where he also publishes these Bible talks, he explains his reason for not making the text available:
bq. I declined to post them publicly, because for this talk I was working from more point-form notes, which are a lot more cryptic to read out of context of the audio, and am concerned that people could mis-read my position on things.
